B52 Crash :: B52CRSH2
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Gallery: Pix 
Album: Matt's Place
Album: Weird, Strange and True Aircraft Photos
Album: B52 Crash
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B52CRSH2
| From: | Aaron | (Tue May 25 18:55:22 2004) |
| Is that an ejetction seat in front of the horizontal stab? | ||
| From: | beaver | (Sun Jun 13 07:06:54 2004) |
| they call that losing altitude??? I call that falling... |
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| From: | John | (Wed Jun 30 17:37:34 2004) |
| I call it a dumb ass pilot. | ||
| From: | Intrepid | (Thu Jul 01 02:08:13 2004) |
| I saw the video of this. The pilot had just got done flying at 30 ft barely clearing a hill top. After that he tried an F16 type hard left bank but didn't have the speed or the altitude. | ||
| From: | Catman | (Mon Jul 26 19:03:44 2004) |
| Slow speed+extreme bank angle=unrecoverable stall. Sadly, they were practicing for an airshow that was designed to lift the spirits of the people at the base after an airman went on a shooting spree. This happened 2 days later. Ironicly, a few men refused to fly with this pilot because of his hotdoging. | ||
| From: | ekstasis | (Thu Sep 16 00:36:25 2004) |
| The Co Pilot was the father of one of my classmates here at the AF Academy... apparently he ordered two of the junior officers off the plane and in doing so saved their lives. According to the after accident report the co-pilot was the only one to attempt to eject but was killed on impact. | ||
| From: | Former AF enlisted aircrew member | (Thu Sep 16 18:59:01 2004) |
| I attended USAF survival school at Fairchild AFB...creepy. | ||
| From: | Mike G | (Tue Sep 21 13:09:13 2004) |
| I think I remember this in the news...the pilot was retiring and this was to be his last flight...he was a real show off, and no one wanted to fly with him..unfortunately it wasnt just HIS last flight. | ||
| From: | Robert McGee | (Sun Oct 17 14:40:17 2004) |
| My dad knew the co- piolt. The piolt was showing off when this happend. The piolt was a stupid person | ||
| From: | Robert McGee | (Sun Oct 17 14:42:27 2004) |
| mike is right too. |
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| From: | Bulldog | (Thu Oct 21 17:02:06 2004) |
| Fairchild was my home base during Viet Nam...we spent most of our time flying out of Guam. We used 60 deg of bank dodging SAMs over Hanoi...not at 30 ft. This guy was a jeep. | ||
| From: | 'Ol Pilot | (Mon Nov 08 13:50:33 2004) |
| Used to refuel these from my KC-135. For the full story, go: http://s92270093.onlinehome.us/crmdevel/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm |
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| From: | Marsh | (Wed Nov 17 12:42:12 2004) |
| The item in the air in front of the tail is the hatch cover above the copilot's seat. He initiated ejection, but there wasn't enough time... | ||
| From: | Red aRRow | (Tue Jan 04 02:51:03 2005) |
| I didn't know B-52s had ejection seats. | ||
| From: | terd | (Wed Jan 19 17:57:43 2005) |
| you have to stop and think before you try to show off | ||
| From: | terd | (Wed Jan 19 18:01:55 2005) |
| "Well I don't have to do the paper work" That is the only happy thought the pilot and the crew was thinking that split second. |
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| From: | retired MSgt | (Fri Jan 28 11:18:51 2005) |
| The last words heard by the tower from the pilot to the crew were, "Sorry guys...." | ||
| From: | claudio | (Sun Feb 13 10:19:19 2005) |
| una foto incredibile | ||
| From: | MaTibirica | (Fri Feb 18 19:35:03 2005) |
| The other 3 with the pilot knew he was going to try something more than he had already done (60 degrees turns close to the AFB). Many crew members had refused to fly with that pilot. Why those 3 got on that flight ? | ||
| From: | formattc | (Fri Feb 18 19:35:12 2005) |
| Yes, all stations on the B52 have ejection seats. The roof hatch blows away and the seat rocket blows the crew member clear of the vertical stab. | ||
| From: | Muller | (Mon Feb 21 14:13:27 2005) |
| As far as I can see, the Czar 52 was already nose down before touching the power lines. | ||
| From: | Wyn | (Tue Mar 22 23:53:50 2005) |
| I went through Navigator School with LtCol Ken Huston. | ||
| From: | Jeff | (Sun Mar 27 18:27:18 2005) |
| Wyn (n all): None of them (except Bud) deserved the final fate of that flight, especially LtCol Huston. | ||
| From: | Maddog | (Sat Apr 16 20:51:51 2005) |
| I had flown with this pilot many times. He was very skilled, but had pushed the BUFF to the limits more than a few times. Every one on this bird had eagles on there uniforms. it was a great lost for the base that day. | ||
| From: | darksanly | (Mon May 02 23:52:31 2005) |
| Who has this vedio footage? | ||
| From: | Stu | (Tue May 03 18:58:24 2005) |
| Look for at Amazing Videos. | ||
| From: | jack | (Mon May 09 15:55:41 2005) |
| the object seen is the co-pilot hatch being jettisoned. I have just retired from Tinker A.F.B. where I worked on the ejection systems for the B-52H's. | ||
| From: | Ric | (Thu May 12 15:42:41 2005) |
| Not all seats go up, some eject down and not all stations eject. | ||
| From: | Ms Kathy | (Wed Jun 15 17:41:09 2005) |
| I am happy that all is well, so lets just thank God that he is safe and look at this as a miracle and something to learn from.... | ||
| From: | Rob James Townsend | (Thu Jun 23 16:48:28 2005) |
| B-52s Dont have ejection seats its something else. seen the footage of this and the pilote was insane... should have been gounded years ago. | ||
| From: | Old Buff Guy | (Thu Jun 23 23:15:41 2005) |
| Buff's very much have ejection seats, I have +2000 hours flying in one... and I am pretty sure of what i was sitting in. Also, there were two B-52s in the pattern that day. I was in the other. | ||
| From: | NikkiHuston | (Mon Jul 04 14:55:15 2005) |
| My dad was the navigator that was on this flight. Lt. Col. Kenneth Huston. It was actually his day off the day he flew with Bud. The navigator that was origonally supposed to fly with him refused to do so. My dad then stepped in... on his day off... | ||
| From: | Nikki Huston | (Mon Jul 04 14:58:21 2005) |
| This image haunts me daily. No one deserved to die on this flight, even Bud. My dad left behind his wife and four kids. | ||
| From: | diver6 | (Thu Jul 14 21:05:29 2005) |
| Nikki, May you and your family find the peace someday that you so greatly deserve. Your father was a man of great courage to get aboard that plane that day. Very sorry for your loss. |
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| From: | joe707 | (Mon Jul 18 15:44:03 2005) |
| The pilot's superiors knew this guy was a loser but were afraid to stop him; they are responsible as well. | ||
| From: | Rick Beebout | (Sun Jul 31 07:03:38 2005) |
| Nikki, I hope all is going well with your family. I knew your family from FBC at the time. I also was the photographer that came and took the Photos at your fathers funeral. |
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| From: | I remember.. | (Thu Aug 04 01:28:19 2005) |
| I remember my father telling me that he believed a high ranking individual was on board whom the pilot hated with a bitter passion. That this was no "accident", but rather, intentional | ||
| From: | Meg Holland, Pilot's daughter | (Fri Aug 19 00:24:07 2005) |
| There is always two sides to every story. Sadly, the country has heard only one and because of that my father, the pilot, has been given a bad rep. He had a passion for life and was looking forward to retiring and spending it with my mother, sister, and myself. | ||
| From: | Meg Holland, Pilot's daughter | (Fri Aug 19 00:27:08 2005) |
| He knew the limits of what a B-52 could do and would NEVER endanger the lives of others. To all of you who call him an idiot and that he deserved to die, I feel sorry for you-for you obviously don't know the whole story here and are very opinionated | ||
| From: | Sherlock Holmes | (Fri Aug 19 18:46:01 2005) |
| It´s been said Bud was on the controls and so, knowing the limits, why did he get in that maneuver ? | ||
| From: | Meg Holland | (Sun Aug 21 03:36:17 2005) |
| There is no proof that my father was at the controls when the plane turned, my father, however tried to correct it. That is the co-pilot who ejected. My father would have never left a crew. | ||
| From: | amjg | (Sun Aug 21 19:59:42 2005) |
| Dear Meg: I´m the one who said your father deserved to die and also signed as Sherlock. I´m 47 and a pilot. What I said was without thinking cause I hate see other aviators die. Sorry ! | ||
| From: | Contraildash | (Mon Aug 22 14:14:07 2005) |
| I just read the case study on this accident. Lots of failures of leadership on many levels led to this accident. Tragic. | ||
| From: | contraildash | (Mon Aug 22 14:17:46 2005) |
| here's one case study: http://s92270093.onlinehome.us/CRM-Devel/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm |
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| From: | Maddog | (Tue Aug 23 20:08:07 2005) |
| Meg sorry for the lost of your father, and the rest of the crew that day. I knew everone on board taht day. as a crew chief at FAFB I flew with BUD many times. The Copilot was my Commanding Officer of the 325th BS. The Nav was a STAN-EVAL expert, and the Vice Wing Commander. |
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| From: | Meg Holland | (Wed Aug 24 02:05:37 2005) |
| Sherlock Holmes and Maddog, thank you for your comments. I know that when there's an accident and nothing is found, it becomes Pilot Error. Well, the sad thing is that there is so much more to this story than the public will never know. | ||
| From: | contraildash | (Wed Aug 24 03:04:03 2005) |
| While nothing diminishes the loss of all involved, it is indeed a clear cut case of pilot error, and could have been prevented had the Wing leadership actually acted. Maj Kerns case study sheds some light on it. Good read. | ||
| From: | Jim135 | (Thu Aug 25 18:42:49 2005) |
| I knew Bud Holland having worked in Tanker Stan/Eval just down the hall from him for over a year. Impressions of events are always different depending on if you know the person or not. He was one of the nicest people I knew. | ||
| From: | Jim135 | (Thu Aug 25 18:43:23 2005) |
| Was he arrogant? Sure a bit but what flyer isn’t (c’mon flyers be honest with yourselves). Was he skilled? Without a doubt. Did he make a mistake? Yes and he happened to do it right at the edge where it couldn’t be afforded. | ||
| From: | Jim135 | (Thu Aug 25 18:43:58 2005) |
| The best usually push the limits and perform right up to the edge. Just look at the plethora of aircraft accidents filmed at airshows and you’ll see that some were luckier than others in their outcomes. To suggest this accident was intentional is ludicrous. | ||
| From: | Jim135 | (Thu Aug 25 18:44:36 2005) |
| For those that haven’t read Darker Shades of Blue that was referenced earlier I recommend it before making snap judgments. It presents an analytical view of the events leading up to the accident. It’s too easy to second guess events that occur in seconds after having years to study them. | ||
| From: | Sherlock Holmes | (Fri Aug 26 15:16:27 2005) |
| Jim135´s statements totally true in my opinion. Not because you´re arrogant, you´re nuts. All rich and important guys are arrogant,aviators ´re not out ! | ||
| From: | observer | (Sat Sep 03 02:41:14 2005) |
| I think the case study by Major Kerns makes it all very clear. Bud Holland was an arrogant "rogue pilot". He may have been a nice guy, but his history speaks for itself. Those, unfortunately, are the cold hard facts. |
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| From: | Alberto | (Sun Sep 11 19:30:18 2005) |
| First time here, not a pilot or crew member but an aeromodeler R/C flyer-many years. I´d like to say that Meg´s statement that we know little and that we´ll never know all, is the final word to me. | ||
| From: | paul | (Tue Sep 13 13:34:50 2005) |
| I was just telling a co-worker about this incident and found your site from google. I stationed at FAFB when this happened - worked at base comms - very sad day and week - the hospital shooting happened that week as well. | ||
| From: | Grant Stewart | (Thu Oct 06 15:08:58 2005) |
| Hi there everybody- what a tragedy- I am a bush pilot in the deep south of New Zealand and woulf very much like to get into contact with Meg Holland- daughter of the great Bud...my email is c130herctruck@hotmail.com---many thanks | ||
| From: | Rugburn | (Mon Oct 10 23:41:32 2005) |
| My sis and nephew were at Fairchild AFB then; They skipped the doc appt. on the shooting day and then were home near the airport when the plane crashed. Too damn close if you ask me. | ||
| From: | Rugburn | (Mon Oct 10 23:44:15 2005) |
| The bald truth is that 'Bud' Holland, as PIC (Pilot In Command) bears ultimate responsibility for this, regardless of who performed the maneuver. It's sad, but that's how the military does things. | ||
| From: | Czar53 | (Tue Oct 11 15:46:50 2005) |
| How much lift is there produced at 90 degrees angle of bank? | ||
| From: | Henrik the Dane | (Fri Oct 14 10:01:09 2005) |
| Same as in straight and level flight, minus the loss of lift caused by the possibly too tight turn rate. | ||
| From: | Henrik the Dane | (Fri Oct 14 10:04:06 2005) |
| If turn is too tight, a/c will enter an "accelerated stall". I have tried up 87° bank angles in turns at higher altitude in a CRJ 200 Regional Jet. |
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| From: | grant stewart | (Fri Oct 14 17:17:52 2005) |
| Still trying to get hold of Meg...if you are out there Meg please email me----yeah we used to rip around all the time at 90 degrees in the A4s- there really is n lift at this aob |
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| From: | czar53 | (Wed Oct 19 14:32:18 2005) |
| Just another example of an irresponsible ass- doing a classic "watch this" on his last flight...how many Muppetts have been killed this way? | ||
| From: | Magoo | (Fri Oct 21 14:58:47 2005) |
| I´m a kind of planes crash researcher. I´d guess this one is unique in our planet. All "watch this" I´d seen b4 this, took precautions (margin error) not to die, kill, cause losses... But in this case... (look the above picture we´ll never forget !" | ||
| From: | Gord Beaman | (Fri Oct 21 22:09:28 2005) |
| Concur with comment re Tony Kerns 'Darker Shades of Blue', should be required reading for all flight crew, To Meg, my heart goes out to you dear...try to forgive him, his priorities were misaligned, try to remember that there's very few perfect humans. | ||
| From: | raaf pig wrangler | (Sun Oct 30 15:26:11 2005) |
| 90" 200-300ft agl, wing over horizon turn in a buff. stupid and reckless and cost the lives of fellow airmen. tragic | ||
| From: | Huskerpilot | (Tue Nov 08 22:42:44 2005) |
| I flew and worked with Bud at K.I. Sawyer AFB. He was a super person and great pilot. Unfortunately, he got into a position, even with his great skill, he couldn't get out of. He is saving lives today. This accident is a case study in major airline human factors training. | ||
| From: | Meg Holland | (Sat Dec 10 02:20:03 2005) |
| I enjoy reading all of your comments. And Gord, forgive him? Why, he didn't cause that crash, but takes the blame because he was the pilot. | ||
| From: | Meg Holland | (Sat Dec 10 02:21:47 2005) |
| He was planning on retiring the following month, he had nothing to prove so why would he go and "show off"? He knew how to push the limits but would never endanger his crew. | ||
| From: | Meg Holland | (Sat Dec 10 02:24:29 2005) |
| In fact, if you don't push the limits sometimes, how would you know what to do if you faced a similar situation in real combat? You can't read about experience. | ||
| From: | top hat | (Tue Dec 27 20:31:05 2005) |
| thats some hard core butt slaming. I saw this on cops. nothing but action |
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| From: | Misawa Enlisted guy | (Wed Jan 18 09:04:21 2006) |
| Read the report!!! F$#@$* idiots all of them, to include the officers who got on the bird with that ass!! | ||
| From: | xusafflyer | (Mon Jan 30 14:03:11 2006) |
| Unknown to many people, there were a lot of people near the impact zone. I was just outside the survival school building with 20 or so other AF enlisted and officers watching the practice. The crash was ~250ft from our group, to the left in the camera shot. | ||
| From: | BUFFJohn | (Mon Feb 06 11:14:07 2006) |
| There's nothing more wasteful than dying in a training accident. This didn't need to happen. | ||
| From: | observer | (Thu Feb 09 09:15:17 2006) |
| I have read with interest all postings relating to this tragic event. My question would be; did the AC request and the military ATC give permission for such an unusual go-around/departure? If no permission was requested/granted then definitely the AC should and deserves all responibility. | ||
| From: | Ex KI | (Tue Feb 14 10:42:34 2006) |
| My sympathies to all, touched by this crash. My tour at KI (75-78) involved a B52, nuclear payload, & 8 dead men, but I can't find anything on the net. My part has been kept secret for 28 years, but now, I need verification, and there is none. | ||
| From: | checksixx | (Fri Feb 17 09:42:01 2006) |
| Megg, please tell us what we have not heard! I'm Air Force SP and can tell everyone here that the report, statements etc...are NOT classified. | ||
| From: | Impaler | (Fri Feb 24 00:02:50 2006) |
| The co-pilot was his squadron commander, also killed in the crash. The right seater shoud've grounded him years before this happened. Wing/CC ignored his violations of pitch/bank angles. | ||
| From: | BUFFJohn | (Tue Feb 28 13:02:42 2006) |
| Ex KI, please elaborate. I flew BUFFs out of Fairchild and Castle and never heard anything about what you refer to. Were you a crewmember? | ||
| From: | WCS Tech | (Wed Mar 01 13:37:17 2006) |
| Never thought about whether we liked or disliked a crew member when they went down. Shock, stumble around numb, impound records, suppress the tears. | ||
| From: | crew chief gone preacher | (Mon Mar 06 09:55:43 2006) |
| I was in the Command Post that day When the crash hotline rang from the control tower. A sad day filled with much anxiety. I'll never forget it. Meg, may God bless you and you family. I'm sorry for your loss, and I'm sorry that so many are still talking about it in such a horrific way. | ||
| From: | Low Flyby @ Buckley ANG | (Tue Mar 21 10:53:55 2006) |
| In about 1990 I saw a B52 perform a high speed flyby, pulling into a 70 degree climb, followed by a wingover at top. Fuel spilled from wing tanks, announcer went nuts. I believe it was Bud Holland driving. Anybody remember for sure? | ||
| From: | Hondo | (Thu Jun 08 06:50:24 2006) |
| Yes it was Bud Holland- Holland did this sort of thing all the time. The AF accident investigation uncovered numerous well-documented incidents in which Bud Holland was at the controls. The senior leadership was seriously reprimanded for not reigning him in before he killed people. | ||
| From: | Mil Brat/USAF Retired 79-99 | (Thu Jun 29 16:55:52 2006) |
| Ex Ki, I remember, believe it happened winter 77-78. Being 16-17 y/o Brat, I dismissed the nuclear arms rumors. I'll ask Dad what he remembers | ||
| From: | Mil PA-C | (Sun Jul 02 23:04:53 2006) |
| I was commissioned on the day of the crash at ACC HQ. Remember it well. see this paper....sheds lots of light. www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm |
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| From: | Colt AN2 | (Fri Jul 28 01:02:16 2006) |
| Obviously an arrogant, selfish man who lost a battle with his ego. Unfortunately his battle losses robbed others of a father, husband, brother, son. There are no proud props for this flathatter. | ||
| From: | John | (Tue Aug 01 22:23:09 2006) |
| I was at Sawyer when a B-52 went down about 5 miles from Sawyer. I was there from 1973 to 1977. I have pictures of the crash site. After I left in 1977 SAC lost another B-52. As far as the nuclear rumor,which crash are you talking about? | ||
| From: | Mil Brat/USAF Retired 79-99 | (Fri Aug 04 18:06:33 2006) |
| John, 77-78?? crash I thought about 2-3 miles north of the base I heard a rumor nuclear arms were on-board. Dad did confirm the crash, he said pilot error, not watching the altitude and hit tree-tops?? | ||
| From: | John | (Sat Aug 05 12:57:34 2006) |
| ???? | ||
| From: | John | (Sat Aug 05 13:01:03 2006) |
| It crashed a few miles north of the Sawyer runway. How far i'm not sure. My pictures show he hit the tree-tops just like you say. Never heard the nuclear weapons story. | ||
| From: | John | (Sat Aug 05 13:03:53 2006) |
| I thought the crash happened in 1974. I've seen info on the internet about this crash. When I left in 1977 there was another B-52 crash. I loaded weapons on the F-106 from the 87th FIS. | ||
| From: | John | (Sat Aug 05 13:26:08 2006) |
| Just found the following info- It crashed on April 1,1977. It was on a landing approach during a heavy spring snow. I do remember now coming out of the bowling alley and it was snowing when I heard that SAC lost a B-52. | ||
| From: | B-52 H Crash April 1, 1977 | (Mon Aug 21 16:15:53 2006) |
| Any info on the 1977 crash , did they all get out? Etc. I was the crew chief on this aircraft 0039, 1972-74 when it was at Grand Forks. Thanks, Joel Van Engen | ||
| From: | KI KID | (Tue Aug 22 17:32:16 2006) |
| I was at KI for that 77-78 crash. More like 78-79 in my mind. It was the standboard #1 crew on a checkflight by the standboard #2 crew. The pilot followed the clouds into the ground. 2 crews, no survivors, no nukes. | ||
| From: | KI KID | (Tue Aug 22 17:35:35 2006) |
| I was doing EWO, Fire Control, and Bomb-Nav simulators for the buffs, working with the aircrews directly at the time. Contributing was a radar altimeter alert switch was left in wrong position, but pilot err was primary. | ||
| From: | KI Kid | (Wed Aug 23 23:27:22 2006) |
| Buffs have 6 crew, 6 ejection seats. 4 up, pilot, co-pilot, fire control, ewo. 2 down, navigator, bomb-navigator. Older models the fire control officer bails out of the tail. | ||
| From: | Mike | (Sun Aug 27 00:21:16 2006) |
| I was a survival school student when that Buff(Czar 52) went down. We had just finished taking an exam and went outside to watch the B-52 fly. I remember thinking to myself, "Wow, I didn't know those planes could fly like that" just prior to the crash. It's a day I'll never forget. | ||
| From: | optV | (Sat Sep 02 04:06:02 2006) |
| Here is footage of the accident and more of "bud"s antics: http://thatvideosite.com/view/978.html I highly recommend reading the darkblue article as it describes in detail the multiple violations and stupidity of the ill-dated pilot | ||
| From: | Tom M | (Fri Sep 08 17:22:24 2006) |
| My brother was on the april 1st flight (Lt Christopher M.).I was 14 at the time.Every now and then do a search to see if there is any info..found this site..can anyone give me more details or point me in the direction to find them I saw some people who were there |
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| From: | 33746 | (Mon Sep 25 20:24:40 2006) |
| The crew and aircraft are gone. They paid the ultimate price for flight of a heavy aircraft of this type beyond its operational limits. Fortunately no one on the ground was killed. Let this be a lesson to any pilot. | ||
| From: | ghostdog | (Sun Oct 08 23:44:37 2006) |
| Meg i knew your dad ,he was a good pilot and don't you forget that, he could make a B-52 do things that nobody else could.a minor mistake was made that day and it cost them.BUD was not the ranking man on board that plane.it was a sad week for FAFB that week.I'm very sorry for all those who died. | ||
| From: | ghostdog | (Sun Oct 08 23:46:08 2006) |
| Meg i knew your dad ,he was a good pilot and don't you forget that, he could make a B-52 do things that nobody else could.a minor mistake was made that day and it cost them.BUD was not the ranking man on board that plane.it was a sad week for FAFB that week.I'm very sorry for all those who died. | ||
| From: | ssffsd | (Wed Oct 11 13:26:20 2006) |
| sfsfd | ||
| From: | kat | (Tue Oct 24 08:34:18 2006) |
| http://thatvideosite.com/video/978 the footage is now there, contains footage of the accident and also the video footage of the Global Power Mission in '93. Well worth watching if you are studying the case. |
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| From: | kat | (Wed Oct 25 02:36:58 2006) |
| hmm looks like its actually the Yakima Bombing Range in '94 where they just make it over the ridge instead of the GPM | ||
| From: | Da S02 Co | (Fri Oct 27 19:18:15 2006) |
| The crash in 74 was a B58 | ||
| From: | Da S02 Co | (Fri Oct 27 19:20:40 2006) |
| I was there from Dec 74 to Mar 79, only one B-52 crash during that time. I was the Co on S02 and I was on alert, S02 was not giving a check ride at the time. No nukes on board. If you want details I'll be happy to give them. | ||
| From: | Da S02 Co | (Fri Oct 27 19:26:14 2006) |
| you can reach me at jmcwil at earthlink dot net | ||
| From: | Da S02 Co | (Fri Oct 27 19:30:07 2006) |
| To crew chief on 0039, there were some real issues with that plane on the previous flight. Total electrical failure at low level at night. damn scarry situation. I know I was there. | ||
| From: | Da S02 Co | (Fri Oct 27 19:45:35 2006) |
| To crew chief on 0039, there were some real issues with that plane on the previous flight. Total electrical failure at low level at night. damn scarry situation. I know I was there. | ||
| From: | eddiek | (Tue Oct 31 01:31:59 2006) |
| A buddy of mine died 05 Nov 1977 and I was told he died in the crash of a B52. Can anyone verify a crash on or about this date? | ||
| From: | matt | (Sat Nov 18 10:37:02 2006) |
| >>he could make a B-52 do things that nobody else could | ||
| From: | matt | (Sat Nov 18 10:38:02 2006) |
| "he could make a B-52 do things that nobody 1else could do" No, he did things in the B-52 that nobody else was stupid enough to do. |
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| From: | matt | (Sat Nov 18 10:38:21 2006) |
| "a minor mistake was made that day and it cost them" You think a completely unnecessary 90+ degree bank 200 feet AGL is a 'minor' mistake? It was deliberate, unforgivable recklessness on the part of Col. Holland. |
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| From: | matt | (Sat Nov 18 10:39:03 2006) |
| The apologists for Col. Holland, including his daughter, need to lay off the crackpipes. There is ample evidence, including pictures, video and statements by colleagues that Col. Holland, while arguably a good pilot, exhibited an appalling lack of judgment. | ||
| From: | matt | (Sat Nov 18 10:39:18 2006) |
| Col. Holland without a doubt performed reckless maneuvers in every previous airshow. To suggest that he wasn't at the controls here is delusional. The man is essentially a murderer. | ||
| From: | dan | (Sun Nov 19 12:39:43 2006) |
| calling Col.Holland a murderer is a big leap too far | ||
| From: | aPilotToo | (Wed Feb 07 06:32:09 2007) |
| "calling Col.Holland a murderer is a big leap too far"..... Not really, Matt just had the balls to say what everyone knows. There is no way Holland should have been allowed in any aircraft. Total breakdown of leadership. |
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| From: | xxx | (Mon Feb 12 17:20:49 2007) |
| Holy crap! Bernoulli principal be damned. | ||
| From: | Dodge10 | (Wed Feb 14 07:39:24 2007) |
| Holland was arguably a "great pilot". He made that turn to avoid overflying the base Nuclear weapons storage area. Overflight of that area was grounds for immediate grounding and in his case would have resulted in permanent grounding. | ||
| From: | mach37 | (Fri Feb 16 20:18:53 2007) |
| In the previous still photo both spoilers appear to be up/deployed. Wouldn't that have contributed to stalling? Can't tell from THIS photo if the left one is still up, but video from fractions of a second before seem to show only the right spoiler up, i.e., full right aileron cranked in. | ||
| From: | USAFA Grad | (Sat Feb 24 11:35:01 2007) |
| Bud Holland was ill. Mentally ill. He killed that crew--manslaughter by negligence. He forgot how to be a good pilot and he was NEVER a good teammate--including his time at the ZOO. THe people who left him at the controls should have received Article-15s. They share the liability | ||
| From: | OPs Goup member | (Sat Feb 24 18:20:22 2007) |
| I was a member of the group at the time of the accident, knew the crew memebers. Holland was reckless but(Col Pellerin) continued to let him fly. If he had been grounded - this wouldnt have happened. Col Pellerin failed Col Holland, he should have been grounded. God forgive Pellerin! | ||
| From: | Ibpilot | (Sun Feb 25 01:08:04 2007) |
| Lot of experts posting in here, Everybody has an expert opinion I am With Miss Holland I do not think bud Holland was at the controls of this plane, as a matter of fact I think no one was at the controls. the two pilots were in a heated arguement and forgot to fly the plane. | ||
| From: | Ibpilot | (Sun Feb 25 01:11:28 2007) |
| Id like to hear the voice rcorder | ||
| From: | rooster1001 | (Sat Mar 03 21:40:44 2007) |
| I was stationed at Fairchild. There were mistakes made by command and whomever was flying. It was a terrible tragedy for all of us there. I think many people have learned from this tragedy. My deepest sypathies to the crew and their families. It's been a rough 12 years. Godspeed. | ||
| From: | ibpilot | (Thu Mar 08 01:30:53 2007) |
| he was trying to save the two guys below. and he was waiting to be last to eject. Bud holland is a hero. sacrificed his life to try and save another | ||
| From: | G Rogers | (Sat Mar 10 17:47:15 2007) |
| My Father F-4 Phantoms, one of the worst things that ever could occur is a plane crash, and when that would inevitably occur, all us "Pilot kids" would wait till we heard the word. The thought of WATCHING your father die, right there... my heart goes out to all. |
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| From: | wow | (Sun Mar 11 20:07:16 2007) |
| He had finished the turn nicely. Did he start to roll it over and others intervened? He might have succeeded if they had let him? Must have been an argument between the pilots - or Bud got carried away grounding them all for good as he was supposed to be grounded (suicidal nd not likely) | ||
| From: | Rugburn | (Sat Mar 24 20:37:56 2007) |
| After reading all material available on- and offline on Holland's career and reputation, it's safe to say he was negligent. There's no scapegoat; He screwed up. And this wasn't an isolated matter. Meg: Your demand of 'proof' is as cowardly as what happened. If you want to play law, go to Harvard. | ||
| From: | IBPILOT | (Sun Mar 25 13:46:58 2007) |
| My previous 3 comments were innapropriate and i apologize for them. No one will ever know what really happened in that plane. I am done now! | ||
| From: | Lyle Meyer | (Mon Apr 02 22:53:52 2007) |
| I was stationed at FAFB 1969-1970.I hope that other air crews learn something from this tragedy. | ||
| From: | Sean | (Sat Apr 07 01:15:14 2007) |
| Meg, Your father was a killer that should have been imprisoned years prior. Any 18 old pilot learns about load factor effect on stall. A plane that will fly at 45 will not necessarily fly at 60 degrees aob. Anything past 50 was not pushing it, it was suicide.Your Dad was a walking time bomb. |
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| From: | Lori | (Sun Apr 08 02:16:08 2007) |
| Got to know your limitations!! | ||
| From: | Old Fairchild B-52 IP | (Sun May 27 12:04:23 2007) |
| I also knew Bud. All that was posted is true (the good, bad, & ugly). He was what we called a frustrated heavy pilot (always wishing he flew fighters). When they crash no one really cars. When a crew AC crashes the blame game begins. | ||
| From: | Raven | (Mon Jun 04 14:03:38 2007) |
| The PIC was criminally negligent and criminally irresponsible. End of story. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 00:52:37 2007) |
| I just finished reading "Darker Shades of Blue" at www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm. Many people posting here are failing to distinguish between the Lt. Col. Bud Holland, exceptional stick and rudder pilot (perhaps the best ever in a B-52) ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 00:53:57 2007) |
| and the airmanship of Lt. Col. Bud Holland (unfortunately, some of the worst ever). Also, many people posting here are posting "from the heart" because Bud Holland was someone they knew and that they feel they must defend him. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 00:55:23 2007) |
| Because of that, ludicrous things are being said, such as the idea Col. Holland was rolling the plane on its side so the navigator and bombardier could eject, or that he was a hero because he didn't over fly the weapons storage area ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 00:56:41 2007) |
| (the deaths of 4 officers is a better outcome then a safety violation resulting in grounding of a pilot?) or the craziest of all (implied but not overtly stated) that Lt. Col. Mark McGeehan ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 00:57:19 2007) |
| ... intentionally crashed the plane, in front of his own wife and children, because of his feud with Lt. Col. Holland. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 00:58:00 2007) |
| Emotions do not make for clear thinking, clear decisions or clearly thought out blog postings. The facts that have been documented in this case (including the video tapes - are those of you defending Col. Holland deigning what is clearly and obviously recorded on video tape?) | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 00:58:36 2007) |
| There is no doubt that Lt. Col. Holland often flew the plane outside its performance envelope. Doing so is a willful denial of the laws of physics (especially aerodynamics) and the rules of engineering. Design limits are not arbitrarily set, but are based on engineering rules and physics. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 00:59:15 2007) |
| You cannot, by force of will, make the aircraft do that which is impossible for it to do. Attempting to take the B-52H in a low speed, high bank angle, 360-degree turn around the tower was asking the plane to violate the laws of physics as well as the engineering limits. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 01:00:15 2007) |
| Lt. Col. Bud Holland knew those engineering limits as well as if not better than most, yet he chose to ignore them. All that is beyond any type of reasoned dispute, although I am sure an emotional argument will be made against this post. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 01:00:52 2007) |
| The only unsettled question about Lt. Col. Holland is, "Why did he do it, and why did he do it not once but repeatedly?" Once could be an accident or oversight. But repeatedly violating design specifications, operational regulations and safety standards is not an accident. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 01:02:48 2007) |
| It can only be incompetence (obviously not the case) or willful violation of the standards and rules. Those of you who knew and cared for Lt. Col. Holland could do everyone a favor by NOT trying to rush to his defense and make excuses, but rather ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 01:03:29 2007) |
| ... to give us some insights into the man, and what when wrong with his think and emotions that led him to this tragic end. If you do that, then maybe we can see the same seeds growing in others, and perhaps stop the process before it repeats itself in another tragic ending. | ||
| From: | Edinger S. | (Wed Jun 13 01:05:18 2007) |
| Best wishes to all, especially friends and families of the aircrew who will always carry these scars. Steve Edinger, Frm USAF Capt. and a biologist who studies bird flight aerodynamics |
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| From: | Steve E. | (Wed Jun 13 01:14:41 2007) |
| One last thought. The laws of nature are not like human laws, where you get a ticket or go to jail for violating them. The laws of nature cannot be violated. Any attempts to do so can result in disaster! | ||
| From: | Tinsel AV8TOR | (Sat Jun 16 16:54:21 2007) |
| Tragic waste. Dark Blue is a fascinating study of mostly personal, but also cultural and organisational, failings. The aerodynamic causes of the crash are almost immaterial, the bigger issue is CRM over 3+ years prior. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:24:00 2007) |
| To Meg Holland (and other who knew Col Holland) you said there is another side to this story, what is it? Are you talking about what the man, Bud Holland was like as a father, friend, neighbor, husband? Or are you trying to say there is another side to pinning responsibility for the accident on him? | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:24:27 2007) |
| To those who knew him when he was Lt or Capt or Major Holland, what was his flying like then? Obviously he had great skills, but can you tell us anything about his judgment and airmanship then? Were there signs of trouble to come? Did he fly the aircraft outside its operational limits then too? | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:24:56 2007) |
| For Meg and others trying to defend Lt Col Holland, you have got to ask yourself some questions. Some say it Wasn't Col Holland at the controls during the Fairchild crash, because he wouldn't do this type of thing. Are you also saying it wasn't him at the controls during the ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:25:21 2007) |
| ... 19 May 1991 air show, which violated some many standards and regulations; was not at the controls during the 12 July 1991 change of command flyover practices and actual event; not at the controls during the 17 May 1992 air show; was not at the controls and did not order (or at least allow) ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:25:50 2007) |
| ... a crew member to climb back to get pictures of the bombs dropping out of the bomb bay; was not at the controls during the 8 August 1993 air show; was not at the controls during the low-level and illegal formation flights at the Yakima Bombing Range on 10 March 1994; ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:26:21 2007) |
| was not at the controls during the 17 June 1994 practice sessions for the air show; and then finally was not at the controls during go around and 360 around the tower resulting in the fatal crash? That is not believable. First off, the command pilot is going to be at the controls during critical ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:26:57 2007) |
| ... maneuvers - takeoff, landing and anything with high risk, especially if it is close to the ground. The command pilot is responsible for and has authority over all the operations on the plane. If the copilot begins operating the aircraft in an unsafe or illegal manner, ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:27:26 2007) |
| ... it is the command pilot's responsibility to take charge and make the corrections. That is not "playing the blame game"; it's called "The buck stops here." Meg (and others), I know you want to believe, "He knew the limits of what a B-52 could do and would NEVER endanger the lives of others." | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:27:53 2007) |
| But Meg, you can't wish the facts away. The videotape shows your father repeated violating the limits. The excuse, "... if you don't push the limits sometimes, how would you know what to do if you faced a similar situation in real combat?" does not cut it. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:28:21 2007) |
| If you exceed the limits of the aircraft and destroy it (wing cracks and pulled rivets) or crash it, the ship is still lost as a combat unit. What you have to do is find tactics to use the aircraft effectively in combat while operating inside its limits. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:29:55 2007) |
| You cannot make the aircraft do impossible things, no matter who you are and how many hours & skill you have. Some say Col Mark McGeehan should not have tried ejecting.Wait a minute; the aircraft was out of control and in an unrecoverable position.What is a pilot suppose to do in that situation? |
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| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:30:24 2007) |
| Give the bailout order and get out. When the stall warning alarm went off and the plane was in or near 90 degrees of bank angle, ~ 250 AGL, what can the aircrew do to recover to controlled flight? Nothing. It is very difficult to tell at what point the aircrew realized the ship was lost, ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:30:55 2007) |
| ... but it appears from the video there were 4-6 seconds of time from a 90 degree bank angle till it hit the wire. Is that enough time to eject? How much of that time elapsed between realizing the ship was lost and trying to eject? | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:31:22 2007) |
| Did Col Holland give a bailout order, or did he fail to recognize the ship was lost? Did his ego prevent him from admitting the ship was lost? Did Lt Col McGeehan try ejecting in response to a bailout order by Lt Col Holland, or just recognize the situation was hopeless? | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:31:50 2007) |
| Did Col McGeehan take command and give a bailout order? Is there a cockpit recording and a transcript in the accident report? Again, Meg Holland said, " That is the co-pilot who ejected. My father would have never [have] left a crew." It was your father's job to tell the crew to eject and ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:32:20 2007) |
| ... to get out himself when he saw the ship was lost. Col McGeehan did the right thing trying to bailout; he just did it too late. It is senseless to ride an out of control ship into the ground, and serves nobody and nothing. It is a bit of the "Great Santini" syndrome. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:32:50 2007) |
| The posting from Wow said, "He had finished the turn nicely. Did he start to roll it over and others intervened? He might have succeeded if they had let him?" Tell me you are kidding. Roll a B-52 at low speed 250 feet above the ground? If Lt Col Holland was planning to ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:33:16 2007) |
| ... try an aileron roll (actually a spoiler roll) in a BUFF, he would have waited till the air show, when the audience was there to see it, because it would be a one shot deal! Immediately after that he would have been grounded for life! He would also have done so with more altitude and airspeed. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:33:45 2007) |
| Technically an aileron roll can be done as a 1 G maneuver, at least in a T-37 or T-38, but in a BUFF? What about the lateral forces on the engine pylons and vertical stabilizer (tail)? Could they stand it or would they break? A B-52 (a D model?) lost its tail to mountain wave turbulence, ... | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:34:14 2007) |
| ... so how would the tail fair in a roll? How long would it take to complete the 360 degrees of roll? A B-52 is not known for having a high roll rate! How far would the nose drop in that time? I doubt there are sufficient test data from the B-52's development to answer these questions. | ||
| From: | Steve E. | (Mon Jun 18 03:34:59 2007) |
So much we don't know, at least in the publicly released information. Does anybody know what is in the official report, or where one can read the official report? Any cockpit recordings in it? Best wishes, especially to family and friends of the lost crew, Steve Edinger |
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| From: | Raven | (Tue Jun 19 14:39:35 2007) |
| Perhaps he wasn't trying for a 90° bank - maybe he was going for a full roll.. | ||
| From: | Raven | (Tue Jun 19 14:46:06 2007) |
| A couple of points that occur to me as a glider (sailplane) pilot: When you turn a long wingspan glider close to the ground, you have to be VERY aware of ground effect & wind gradient | ||
| From: | Raven | (Tue Jun 19 14:52:53 2007) |
| Essentially, if you banked left steeply, close to ground, your left wing would dip into 'slower' air (slowed by ground friction) close to the ground, and you could VERY easily stall your left wing, causing a classic stall/spin into ground. | ||
| From: | Raven | (Tue Jun 19 14:55:54 2007) |
| Stall/spinning a glider like a Nimbus at 200ft would be curtains too. I wonder if wind gradient was a factor at Fairchild. |
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| From: | Raven | (Tue Jun 19 14:58:55 2007) |
| Whenever I watch this awful video, I always think, If only they had 15,000 ft underneath.. Very sad. | ||
| From: | Leoman | (Sun Jun 24 06:29:34 2007) |
| Buds get a "go-around"; adds power, stores the undergear, picks up some speed and then commences a tight left hand turn at 60 degrees. Then levels out, then tightens it again, stalls and crashes. Why!? I think I know why... | ||
| From: | Leoman | (Sun Jun 24 08:20:13 2007) |
| If you check out the airbase on Google Earth (47°36'56.68"N 117°38'49.87"W) you see a couple of bunkers just south of the runway. | ||
| From: | Leoman | (Sun Jun 24 08:21:32 2007) |
| It's a nuclear arms storage area. I think the pilot was trying to avoid flying over that. A simpler way would have been to level out and continue south. | ||
| From: | Leoman | (Sun Jun 24 08:23:04 2007) |
| Then again... What would have happend if the jet crashed at the storage area (it's less then 2 000 feet away)? Perhaps we where more lucky then we know... | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:46:34 2007) |
| Getting a nuclear weapon (H-bombs in this case) to explode requires generating a precise implosion, Starting at all points around the sphere at the exact same time. It is no small technological feat, which is why places like Iran and N. Korea build fission bombs, using uranium or plutonium instead. | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:47:08 2007) |
| My 4.5 years of Nuclear Surety training from the USAF tell me there was absolutely NO chance of a nuclear detonation, and all crewmembers on that plane had the same training and the same knowledge. There is a remotely small chance of the plane crash causing a non-nuclear explosion ... | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:47:40 2007) |
| ... (called a low order detonation), which would have scattered some radioactive material over several hundred square feet. But if the plane had been flying straight and level, there is virtually no chance it would have crashed into the Weapons Storage Area (WSA). The only logical reason for ... | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:48:14 2007) |
| ... Lt Col Holland to turn that sharply away from the WSA at that low an altitude is because he knew if he flew over it he would be grounded. This leaves us with two likely possibilities for Lt Col Holland's critical error, leading to a fatal crash. 1. While executing an improper go around ... | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:48:46 2007) |
| ... he mistakenly set a course over the WSA, attempted to avoid the WSA by pushing the aircraft outside it's flight envelope and crashed. 2. He planned to fly this tight turn around the tower on this improper go around, pushing the aircraft well outside its flight envelope and crashed. | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:49:20 2007) |
| I must point out that in "Darker Shades of Blue" (www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm) and other accounts/analyses of the accident, nothing suggest that Lt Col Mark McGeehan had any history of trying to push the B-52 beyond it's limits, violating regs and tech order limits. | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:49:50 2007) |
| On the other hand, Lt Col Holland had a history of doing so, born out in witness testimony and on video tape (see video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6991478050418604437&q=B-52&total=14915&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=se arch&plindex=0 ). You may find it helpful to read the case history in "Darker Shades" | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:50:18 2007) |
| ... to understand and recognize all the violations in the video tape (i.e., flying directly over people at low altitudes might not occur to most of us as a safety violation). Some will be obvious from common sense! My point is any suggestions that Lt Col McGeehan put the aircraft into ... | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:50:46 2007) |
| ... this unsafe position are absurd. The suggestion only distracts from the real questions, including: Why did Lt Col Holland attempt what he surely knew was impossible? and How do we make sure nobody else does the same? "Darker Shades" makes it all to clear how the command staff failed to ... | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:52:07 2007) |
| ... prevent this accident, but it doesn't delve into what went wrong with Lt Col Holland to lead him to this early grave, taking 3 others with him? Only addressing the accident and the events that led to it squarely, honestly and unflinchingly can bring some go out of a needless tragedy! | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:52:40 2007) |
| As a point of reference to what these bank angles mean and why they are important, for an aircraft to turn with a 60 degree bank angle and maintain a constant altitude, it must pull 2 g (twice the force of gravity). To do that it must have an airframe that can tolerate that amount of strain ... | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:54:05 2007) |
| ... and sufficient power to maintain airspeed. Pulling g's drains airspeed unless you have the power to overcome it. So here is what the rundown looks like for maintaining a constant altitude at different bank angles: | ||
| From: | Steve E | (Mon Jun 25 01:54:45 2007) |
30 degrees = 1.16 g (this is the normal bank angle of heavy aircraft and airlines) 45 deg = 1.41 g 60 deg = 2 g 70 deg = 2.92 g 75 deg = 3.86 g 80 deg = 5.76 g 85 deg = 11.47 90 deg = 1/cos 90 deg = 1/0 = infinite (Cannot be done!) |
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| From: | Steve Edinger | (Mon Jun 25 01:56:13 2007) |
I don't know what the maximum g limit for a B-52 is or the maximum number of g's a B-52 can sustain without losing airspeed, but that 3.86 g at a 75 deg bank has got to be pushing, if not exceeding both limits! Best wishes, Steve Edinger, Dept of Biol Sci, Ohio U., Athens |
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| From: | Bud Holland | (Wed Jun 27 14:12:49 2007) |
| The tragic thing about this is had an enlisted person been guilty of the same things this jackass zipperhead was (dereliction, violating regulations, disobeying orders), he would have been court-martialed long before and discharged before he killed anyone | ||
| From: | Bud Holland | (Wed Jun 27 14:15:21 2007) |
| But because he was an officer and therefore "better" than an enlisted peon his conduct was tolerated, covered up and allowed to continue until he caused this tragic accident. I feel sorry for the other 3 victims families that their loved ones had to die at the hands of this idiot. | ||
| From: | Oilman | (Fri Jun 29 18:22:54 2007) |
| Early post: "The last words heard by the tower from the pilot to the crew were, "Sorry guys...." " I've researched this crash quite extensively on the net and have found no references to cockpit conversations with the tower or between the crew. |
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| From: | Oilman | (Fri Jun 29 18:25:20 2007) |
| Someone in the crew would have to key the mike for the tower to hear the crew's conversation. I doubt that the pilot (Holland) could have keyed the mike while trying to regain control of the aircraft in the last seconds of flight. | ||
| From: | Oilman | (Fri Jun 29 18:27:20 2007) |
| Did the AFR 110-14 publicly disclose transcripts of the crew's conversation? If so, please post website links. Thank you!! | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jun 30 01:08:08 2007) |
| Oilman is correct, the person heard by the tower would have to key the mike to be heard. Generally, that can be done with a button on the yoke or throttles (depends on the plane). Also correct that the pilot would not be likely to take time for such a comment in the middle of trying ... | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jun 30 01:08:53 2007) |
| to regain control of a crashing plane. HOWEVER, if the account is correct and he did radio that to the tower, you have to ask some questions. Why chat on the radio instead of giving the bailout order and ejecting? Colonel Robert Wolff, the Vice Wing Commander (the Vice), was onboard as the ... | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jun 30 01:09:23 2007) |
| "safety observer" and apparently was the ranking officer onboard. Although the Aircraft Commander (AC) is in command of the plane, I would think his superior officer, the Vice (and safety observer), could say, "Stop! Level this thing out before you kill us all!" Did he? I don't think BUFF's ... | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jun 30 01:10:02 2007) |
| have a cockpit voice recorder, so we will never know. The tape of the practice sessions shows that there were numerous violations in both before the crash, which means there were numerous chances for the Vice to say, "Get the plane within regs or get us back on the ground!" Perhaps since it was ... | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jun 30 01:10:38 2007) |
| his fini flight, he was just trying "not to make waves". Lt Col Ken Huston, as the Radar Navigator, was not in a position where he had the authority to stop Lt Col Holland, and unfortunately neither was Lt Col McGeehan since he was officially sitting in the plane as the copilot. | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jun 30 01:11:12 2007) |
| McGeehan could have relieved Lt Col Holland of command (mutiny?), but the Wing leadership had already failed to ground Holland in spite of his clear violations. In that light you have to ask, "Could McGeehan have relieved Holland during the flight, or would McGeehan have been court-martialed ... | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jun 30 01:11:48 2007) |
| for stopping Holland from violating safety regulation, FAA regulations, Air Force regulations and technical orders?" Sounds like an absurd possibility, yet it seems like it would have been the likely outcome! Several people have asked why these men, particularly Lt Col McGeehan, were on the plane | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jun 30 01:12:26 2007) |
| with Lt Col Holland when they knew how dangerous he was. "Darker Shades" makes it clear Lt Col McGeehan was there because he prohibited members of his Squadron from flying with Lt Col Holland to protect them. His was a heroic act of self-sacrifice to save the life (lives) of his soldiers. | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jun 30 01:13:06 2007) |
| I have to salute him as one of the Air Force's finest, and would have been proud to serve under the command of such brave and decent man. I also find his death the most grievous of all the grievous losses on that day. In a just universe, his attempt to eject would have succeeded. Best Wishes! |
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| From: | Oilman | (Sun Jul 01 00:45:54 2007) |
| Steve, I thought you posted website links earlier. Did the links somehow get zapped? Thanks. |
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| From: | Steve Edinger | (Thu Jul 05 18:46:07 2007) |
| The links are still there (and below). One is to “Darker Shades of Blue” (a must read) and a long video, documenting many incredibly dangerous maneuvers, violating regulations, standards and common sense (a must see!) | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Thu Jul 05 18:46:42 2007) |
www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm video.google.com/videoplay?docid= 6991478050418604437&q=B-52&total=14915&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=se arch&plindex=0 |
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| From: | steve, stfu | (Wed Jul 11 18:14:19 2007) |
| Bud Holland was a 23 year aviator with over 5000 hours on type. He got complacent and reckless. p.s steve edinger, dep of biol sci??? didnt know that made u an expert on all things aviation |
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| From: | BritAviator | (Thu Jul 12 08:38:34 2007) |
| Lets be clear here - this wasn't the first time 'Bud' Holland broke the tech rules for the aircraft and flying display rules. | ||
| From: | BritAviator | (Thu Jul 12 08:38:54 2007) |
| While his supervisors carry a weight of the blame for not grounding him a lot earlier, he was the aircraft commander and 1st pilot of an aircraft that crashed doing a manoeuvre that he has done before. He had lots of 'history' of these types of illegal manoeuvres. He was clearly to blame. | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:05:37 2007) |
| steve, stfu said, "p.s steve edinger, dep of biol sci??? didnt know that made u an expert on all things aviation." Well, well, here is a classic in the art of rhetoric as well as Fallacious Reasoning and Emotional Appeal! Instead of addressing the points made and disputing (or agreeing) with them... | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:06:01 2007) |
| you impugn the reputation, qualifications, etc. of the person making those points. Such an approach may be worthy of a political debate among candidates, but is beneath a reasoned discussion. Be that as it may, I will lay all my cards down so you (and others) can decide what my hand is worth! | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:06:32 2007) |
| 1. At no time have I claimed to be an expert on all things aviation. 2. I spent a year at USAF flight school, where I learn a reasonable amount about aerodynamics, flight operations, regulations and procedures. Although I landed a T-38 well, I flew a lousy final turn (pretty wobbly on... |
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| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:07:02 2007) |
| ... airspeed and altitude!), which ended my "career" as a pilot. 3. I spent 6 years in the USAF officer, including Officer Training School and Squadron Officer School by correspondence. In that time I learned a great deal about command responsibility, leadership and management. | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:07:28 2007) |
| 4. Four of those years were spent as a Missile Launch Officer (plus a half in training for missiles), including nearly three as a Missile Combat Crew Commander and 1 as a Flight Commander. I have some understanding of command leadership and command responsibility. | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:08:12 2007) |
| During those 4 years (plus the 1/2 year training), I took monthly exams on Emergency War Orders (how to fight nuclear war), Code Handling (how to handle the code components for nuclear weapons), Nuclear Surety (how to handle nuclear weapons, nuclear safety and what will and will not... | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:08:42 2007) |
| make them blow up) and missile procedures (Minuteman II). Incidentally, any BUFF driver would also have similar Nuclear Surety training. 5. I have been a scientists (biologist) since graduating college 29 years ago. As such, my expertise is in designing experiments and collecting data to... | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:09:12 2007) |
| test scientific hypotheses, and evaluating the scientific validity and logic of fact based (i.e., scientific) arguments. My particular areas of expertise are (oddly) bird flight (bird and vertebrate aerodynamics) and the evolution of bird flight, as well as fisheries management (my master's work). | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:10:34 2007) |
| I have a well developed "bullshit filter" as well as a good ability to get to and evaluate the facts and logic of an argument. With all that being said, I am not sure what your objection is to what I have said, or perhaps you simple object to me commenting on Bud Holland's crash because I am a |
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| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:11:07 2007) |
| biologist. If you are objecting to my criticisms to Lt Col Holland pushing the plane outside it's specified limits or Air Force and FAA flight regulations, there are several BUFF drivers who have made comments here who can authoritatively explain why that is a mistake as well as what the limits... | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:11:36 2007) |
| (bank and g) are for a B-52, assuming that information is not classified. But the general observation that exceeding the specified limits of the regulations and aircraft specifications stands, unless you want to claim that those limits and regulations are meaningless, and that the pilots and... | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:12:03 2007) |
| engineers who defined them do not know what they are doing. Are you disputing my statement that, "The laws of nature are not like human laws, where you get a ticket or go to jail for violating them. The laws of nature cannot be violated. Any attempts to do so can result in disaster!" |
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| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:12:30 2007) |
| If so, are you claiming a person can pick and choose which laws of nature to "follow", or that they can be "turned on and off"? Are you disagreeing with the table of g loads need for a level flight turn? If you are I'm sure you can look them up online somewhere, or you can do the math yourself. | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:12:55 2007) |
| It is a simple trigonometry or vector problem (before you as, I have had around 30 semester hours of mathematics - a lot for a biologists! - including analytic geometry: 1.5 years of calculus; linear algebra and matrix theory; differential equations; introduction to discrete structures; and... | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:13:22 2007) |
| about 2 years of probability and statistics). Perhaps you object to someone who is not a professional pilot evaluating the actions of a pilot. If so, perhaps you could explain which portions of my comments and evaluations are wrong, why they are wrong coming from a non-pilot and | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:13:50 2007) |
| how they are wrong based on the data and logic, not a emotional appeal or emotional response to them. In the end, I guess I am not sure what your point was when you said, " p.s steve edinger, dep of biol sci??? didnt know that made u an expert on all things aviation." | ||
| From: | Steve Edinger | (Sat Jul 14 02:14:48 2007) |
| Perhaps you could explain what your point is to us, and logically (and based on the data) what mistakes I have made. If I have made errors in logic or data analysis, I want to know what they are so I can correct them! Best wishes, Steve Edinger, Biology Instructor, Ohio University |
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| From: | u dont need to know | (Tue Jul 31 17:37:28 2007) |
| i am going to become a pilot and this stuff happens, yawll just need to be proud that we have people brave enough to fly!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| From: | Voodoo | (Tue Aug 07 11:35:36 2007) |
| Col. Holland was an amazing pilot. I happened to have been standing next to the guy taking this video when he went down. It's a shame he has to be remember like this. | ||
| From: | Steph from Oregon | (Sun Aug 26 00:04:57 2007) |
| I think people are casting judgment on pure speculation. Everyone thinks they know what happened, but since none of you were in the cockpit, I think you should quiet down and let the families have their grief. Lives, and a magnificent aircraft were lost that day. No more finger-pointing. | ||
| From: | Steph from Oregon | (Sun Aug 26 00:30:30 2007) |
| Incidentally, I found this cool "little" RC B-52 online: http://www.elchineroconcepts.com/B52_Model-640.jpg Which ironically, also crashed. Pity... that was one fine model. My heart hurts when any type of aircraft is destroyed; including the tiny ones. |
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| From: | Jeffrey Bania (Jeff) | (Sun Sep 02 23:26:57 2007) |
| I was there that day and it was horrible it happend a few days after a psycho shot up the base hospital this was one of the sadest weeks I have ever had. I will never forget that mushroom cloud. | ||
| From: | IFR52 | (Wed Sep 05 16:03:31 2007) |
| All these people defending the indefensible, good guy or not, good pilot or not, he had a long history of recklessness and disregard of regulations and should have been grounded long before this happened. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:15:32 2007) |
| My name is Pat McGeehan and I’m the son of Lt Col Mark McGeehan, the acting Co-Pilot on board this fateful flight. I’ve always tried to stay out of what I see as useless bickering between the family’s of the 3 other crew members who were killed that day in June of 1994, | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:18:11 2007) |
| but I came across this website, read some of the comments that were posted, and felt a need to post a response.The day my Dad’s BUFF went down changed my life forever. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:18:44 2007) |
| I am the oldest of my Dad’s 3 sons, and myself, my Mom and two younger brothers watched from near the flight line at Fairchild as the accident unfolded | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:19:06 2007) |
| - I was 14 years old then, and being the oldest, of course I had to pick-up where my Dad left off and carry my two younger brothers through the rest of their adolescent lives. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:20:28 2007) |
| After high school, I followed in my Dad’s footsteps, attending the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs and graduating in 2003. I chose not to fly and instead served as an Intelligence Officer for a number of years, including a tour in Iraq and Afghanistan. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:21:16 2007) |
| I’ve since separated from the Air Force and I now own and run my own manufacturing production plant in my family’s hometown of Chester, West Virginia. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:22:06 2007) |
| With regards to the comments posted on this web site, a great majority of them are at the very least false and at the very most, atrocious. I understand the pain Col Holland’s family must live with every day, along with the family’s of Col Huston and Col Wolfe. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:22:29 2007) |
| But let me say this…I have objectively studied a great deal about the accident and the events leading to it, and thus I have learned over the years to distance myself from the emotion I feel in order to render a logical and unbiased opinion. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:22:55 2007) |
| During my 4 years at the Air Force Academy, I was asked my many flag officers to give countless briefings and lectures to various audiences on the accident (no doubt because of my unique position as Mark McGeehan’s son). | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:23:31 2007) |
| Lt Col Tony Kern (author of “The Darker Shades of Blue”) served as the head of the History Department during my tenure at the Academy, and he was a close mentor and friend of mine. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:23:50 2007) |
| In addition, I also wrote an analytical term-paper about the accident, and so with this in mind, please give a certain level of credibility to the following assessment I will provide. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:24:57 2007) |
| Of all the 4 crew members on board the aircraft that day, my Dad was the only Air Force Academy Graduate. I feel that one advantage the Academy provides is that it instills a deep sense of character in a man. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:25:18 2007) |
| This character stems through the Academy’s sacred Honor Code, which reads “We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does”. My Dad was a bit of an idealist, and he strongly lived his life by this Code, especially the “toleration” clause. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:25:45 2007) |
| I believe this quality of refusing to tolerate poor character and leadership enabled him to act in the months preceding the accident to attempt to first ground Col Holland, and second, ensure his men were out of harms way. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:26:08 2007) |
| From my research and interviews with the pilots and navigators under my Dad’s Command at the squadron level—it is clear that Col Holland had been a good experienced pilot and no one will question this fact. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:26:54 2007) |
| But it is also self-evident that during the last few years preceding the accident, he had become undisciplined and had continually demonstrated poor-leadership to junior pilots at the squadron and wing levels. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:27:38 2007) |
| From studying my Dad’s notes and his personal scheduling book, I’ve noted that on at least 2 separate dates, months before the accident, he had scheduled meetings with Col Pellerin---the Group Commander and my Dad’s immediate superior in rank--- regarding Col Holland’s flying habits. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:28:00 2007) |
| . On March 17th, one entry in my Dad’s scheduling book reads “Meeting with Col Pellerin—Ground Bud Holland!”. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:28:19 2007) |
| Of course Col Pellerin and the Wing Commander Col Brooks never took action and unfortunately did not approve of my father’s request. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:29:13 2007) |
| There is also ample evidence from the testimony of several pilots and from Col Pellerin himself that my Dad ordered his squadron not to fly with Holland. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:29:33 2007) |
| In my Dad’s scheduling book, it appears that he did in fact track the mission and flight schedules at Fairchild for at least 2 months before the accident. He ensured that every time Holland flew, my Dad would put himself in the aircraft and thereby, remove his subordinates from the flight. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:31:01 2007) |
| In fact, the very morning of the accident flight, my Dad ordered one of his junior pilots, Capt Mark Thomas, off of the aircraft. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:31:19 2007) |
| Capt Thomas personally told me he was scheduled to “ride-along” in one of the B-52s jump seats, directly behind the cock-pit and next to where Col Wolfe would have been seated. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:31:41 2007) |
| In short, my Dad would be embarrassed at the labeling of his efforts as “heroic”. He was a very devout Catholic and I know that if he were alive today, he would only ask that we pray for the families of Bud Holland, Ken Houston, and Robert Wolfe. | ||
| From: | Pat McGeehan (PatMcGeehan) | (Wed Sep 12 11:32:01 2007) |
| From the comments I have read on this website f | ||